Brexit

[goat]

vote for romario

[The Blue Blooded Maniac]

Good debate when half pissed on a Saturday night!

[Lekos]

we should never have been given the option to vote on this in the first place seeing as the average bloke on the street has no real clue what the eu really do.

Exactly that. Fucking Cameron ffs.

So, the answer is?

We're all feckin fecked

[Lekos]

There should be another referendum on the final agreement or no deal. As indicated previously, this insistence that the outcome of any referendum must be final is crazy and inconsistent. Nobody knew the detail of what was being voted for at the time. People should be allowed to change their minds as they often do on big decisions.

I'm all for a second referendum, but not much point in voting for a shit deal or no deal.

Wouldn't be surprised if the deadline was extended to December 2019 and binned off via a second 'people's vote'.

Brexit = lunacy.

[goat]

they had 40 years to come up with a plan and all weve had is some bollocks about fish and blue passports

[Rowley Birkin QC]

So, the answer is?

Major electoral reform and Proportional Representation might be a good start.

But you all voted that down in a referendum as well....

[Lekos]

Even the Daily Hate mail is printing quite negative pictures of brexit now... There's a turnaround.

Jacob Rees-Mogg is adamant the UK will be better off financially in the future. However, he's not sure if that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 years down the line. Sounds like an excellent platform for stability.   

[goat]

Some kind of pre-vote testing should be brought in

[Neil Mcnab]

The EU started as a cartel for coal and steel. Its carried on much the same, its undemocratic, wastes loads of money. Massively overpaid Eurocrats. Saying all that, if it was just a free trade area, I could put up with it. But its a political project to become the united states of Europe. No thanks.

[gavin]

Britain has a veto. It has not been forced into many aspects of the EU that other countries have agreed to. Whether this political project that you describe exists or not, there is absolutely no need for Britain to agree to it and, as has been shown, it could vote to leave anyway. If Britain does leave the EU, I reckon it will be back in in the next 20 years, with the Euro as currency and without the special vetoes it has negotiated over the years. The economic cost of Brexit will force Britain to go back cap in hand sooner or later. All the nationalistic chest beating in the world does not make a country an economic powerhouse.

[Rowley Birkin QC]

This "EU is undemocratic" nonsense makes me laugh. The EU has a reasonably sound democratic structure that all its member states and their populations can have a direct say in (should the lazy Brits bother to turn up and vote that is... but that's hardly the EU's fault.) There are checks and balances - nothing can be forced on Britain that it's government doesn't agree with. Contrary to the much repeated Brexit myth, the much maligned Eurocrats do not go around just making up laws and then forcing them on EU member populations. They can formulate policy (and enforce existing regulations) but all new EU laws have to be passed by the EU Parliament and ratified by the member state commissioners.

It's not perfect of course - all government systems have flaws and 'undemocratic' glitches, but compare it to Britain which still bumbles along using a voting system that hasn't evolved since the 1920's and produces governments with massive unassailable majorities in the House of Commons on as little as 40% of the popular vote. The European Parliament, and most its continental member states with their proportionally elected governments have better democratic representation than Britain ever has!

[reddishblue]

There should be another referendum on the final agreement or no deal. As indicated previously, this insistence that the outcome of any referendum must be final is crazy and inconsistent. Nobody knew the detail of what was being voted for at the time. People should be allowed to change their minds as they often do on big decisions.

Democracy is a sham and isn't working but there is no real alternative except to improve it by making it by actually making the results reflect the votes cast. It is an embarrassing mess to have popular vote losers win the election. There is something badly wrong with the party and electoral systems when we end up with Trump, Johnson and the like as political leaders. It is very difficult to find a politician to take seriously at the moment.

City are top the league you misery.

[Neil Mcnab]

The commission brings in legislation. By the fact the commissioners are there, they are bound to be Euro evangilists. If the direction of the EU was moveable, responded to the wishes of the population in Europe, it would be more democratic. It isnt. The parliament is little more than a talking shop.

[Rowley Birkin QC]

Yes - the Commission can form legislation, but it can't become law without being passed by the European Parliament. 

[gavin]

Neil, what makes you think UK 'democracy' is any better.

[Neil Mcnab]

Bringing forward for legislation in the UK is mainly via the government, private members bills or case law in the courts. The first two are instigated by directly elected representatives, the MPs. The legislation brought in by the government is linked to their manifestos which they parade to people at elections. If people dont like it, they vote them out.
In the EU commissioners are faceless Eurocrats, accountable to few and wont be pushed out if the electorate dont like what they are doing. Without looking one up, name a commissioner. I cant.
So in that way I would say it is more democratic in the UK.

I like Europe. I like the idea of a common market, free trade. I dont want a Union with them. I am not anti immigration, I would like merit based immigration, similar to Australias. That may well mean more immigration than we have now, there should not be quotas. Our country benefits from importing the best the whole world has to offer. 

[goat]

but why would the best want to come to this basket case country?

one look at the fucking tories will fuck that

[Lekos]

England is now shit.  End of statement.

[Lekos]

Michael Gove’s hot tip: hunt for gold in others’ rubbish

UK / England / Tories are succeeding in making Greece look prosperous and organised 

[goat]

we taking bets on who the brex cases blame when it all goes to shit?

probably still be foreigners