I was talking with my lawyers on Friday, and one of them follows City. He asked me about the 115 charges City are facing. His main question was " if City are alleged to have used fraudulent and conspiracy to gain an advantage then why are City not in Crown Court as these allegations are criminal." Steffan Borson said the same thing by saying that the PL independent panel is the wrong forum to try this case. Further, he stated that if cleared City should go after the PL and ruin them.
What do you all think?
Victoria ❤️
God only knows what a tribunal panel appointed by the PL will decide. We won at CAS and they cleared our name, this is a rerun, a second bite of the cherry, but it is worth remembering at CAS we won 2 judges to 1. That one believed we were guilty of some of the core charges.
My understanding is that as it is a tribunal agreed upon by all PL clubs as the appropriate mechanism their can be no judicial appeal on the outcome if it goes against us.
We should be in a court of law, and not a tribunal. Those are criminal charges we are facing. Also if found guilty we can appeal whereas withe tribunal we cannot. I would take it court, there is no independent tribunal ever, thay are always for the employer (pl).
Yeh, it is essentially fraud that we are accused of. Maybe criminal charges could follow if found guilty. But CAS already said that the evidence just wasn't there to support that charge on the years that they adjudicated on. If they had bombshell new evidence then I think that we'd have heard by now.
Would that double jeopardy?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68074110
QuoteManchester City - losses of 59m euros (£51m) and Bayern Munich - losses of 61m euros (£52m) - "have the best balances among the most competitive teams" the report said.
This just illustrates the folly of all these rules. What is the problem with investing in your club to then become the most competitive and well managed club in the world? They are punishing wise and successful investment along with careless and problematic spending. Not to mention, rewarding those who bleed their own clubs dry.
Quote from: Vickki on January 21, 2024, 20:59:34
Would that double jeopardy?
Doubt they have that law at a workplace tribunal.
Also, in UK law, you can apply to have an acquittal quashed if compelling evidence comes to light.
The thing about FFP and subsequent equivalents they do not take into account any debt but they do try and prevent investment.
I wonder why that is? NOT.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/qEfMHjeuk13HXsmG/?mibextid=jmPrMh (https://www.facebook.com/share/v/qEfMHjeuk13HXsmG/?mibextid=jmPrMh)
Links not working for me Stevie
The PL are onto a hiding here. The cosy cartel is going to get a shake up and a grilling as to why some clubs seem to get away with everything
Came across this earlier. It's a bit of a read but some good points:
Fact checking claims about City's FFP charges
Since the Premier League first laid charges, most already reached a verdict that 'City are obviously guilty'. The news quieted a bit because Arsenal were leading the PL, but the closer City comes to the title the more the discussion rises again.
What's more, like a game of broken telephone, it seems like the claims get wilder with every person that repeats them. And everything that's thrown in -- from FFP violations to bribery to illegal offshore payments--seems to stick.
Therefore, I wrote this summary addressing claims I commonly read. I don't work in law or finance, so I've drawn from the following sources:
Stephan Borson, who is a lawyer that runs the City Spaces and in the past gave a pretty impartial summary of the PL case. For those of you who are lawyers, he's also written an extremely detailed 2-part review of the documents of the UEFA case, here is part 1 and part 2.
u/ LessBrain, who is probably the top football finance expert on reddit, and has previously written an accessible summary of the UEFA case that gives context to this post.
Matt Slater and Sam Lee, from their Athletic article
Swiss Ramble, a football finances blogger.
Deloitte Football Money League.
Disclaimer: This post assumes familiarity with the UEFA case, e.g. have read the summary written by LessBrain. Of course I support the PL investigation to reveal the truth. However even if the club is cleared by the PL commission (which based on my understanding, I think we can reasonably expect to happen) I don't think many outside of maybe this subreddit will care. I was reading comments on the UEFA case in r soccer from 3 years ago and was really surprised because it seemed most fans were so levelheaded. But the threads describing the recent PL charges were overwhelmingly one sided.
The facts of the case is extremely easy to misinterpret even by City fans. And there's just not enough City fans to control the narrative, especially among content creators. This means the PR damage from first the UEFA charges, and now this seems basically irreversible. Some beliefs about the club are so widely and confidently propagated that I actually doubt whether there's any evidence in the world that would get people especially rival fans to change their mind. It probably doesn't help that City keep winning things. But the writeup can hopefully can still be useful to some.
As always corrections welcome.
"It's obvious that City have been cheating their way to the top since the current owners came in."
City's current owners took over in 2008. The implementation of FFP by UEFA happened in 2011/2012 season, and by the Premier league in 2013. City's owners invested a lot in the beginning period of the club. Clearly, the spending when the takeover happened was intended to accelerate the pace of the team to challenge for top 4.
However City, unlike other top clubs, had this funding phase coincide with the introduction of FFP. The LessBrain post covers how when the initial implementation of FFP by UEFA was rolled out, City made preparations to meet and abide by them. However UEFA changed the initially drafted rules about how FFP would be assessed. This had a huge accounting implication which is covered in detail by Swiss Ramble, as a result of which City resolved the situation by taking a settlement fine with UEFA.
"City wouldn't have been fined if they were not guilty."
The club paid the settlement during the UEFA case, but this is not an admission of guilt. The club has never accepted that they broke the FFP rules. And indeed, they were not found guilty.
The fine was in fact for 'not cooperating' in handing in emails late. The Club has always maintained its innocence. Note that the CAS ruling was word for word: "Manchester City FC did not disguise equity funding as sponsorship contributions but did fail to cooperate with the UEFA authorities."
"Not cooperating means they had something to hide."
A common misunderstanding is that City was withholding evidence, but the non cooperation charge is for submitting emails requested by UEFA late. Importantly, the emails requested were submitted in full in the end and the relevant parties were called forth as witnesses for questioning. Further, they did not withhold any actual accounting related documents.
Note that the normal course of an investigation would be to find evidence of wrongdoing, and then make charges. i.e. the burden of proof should be on UEFA. But the CAS ruling makes clear that UEFA did not have the evidence to charge City, all they had was the leaked emails and they were trying to build a case by digging around.
"City was only found innocent during the UEFA investigations because evidence became time barred."
In the UEFA case, City was accused of disgusting equity funding through the sponsorships of Eitsalat and Etihad. CAS only ruled one allegations regarding one sponsor-- Eitsalat --as time barred, but for Etihad they were not, and the final ruling was to clear City. This means that Borson details in this thread, CAS just did did not make a finding because they didn't have to, not because they were forced to abandon evidence of guilt.
"There are literally emails proving city is guilty."
The PL has not specified what evidence they are using in their ongoing investigation. But a lot of people use the leaked emails from Der Spiegel, which were the basis of the UEFA case, as evidence of guilt. Note the club maintained during CAS that these were specific doctored emails from a pile of hacked emails.
Most commonly people discuss one part of these emails in which the club appear to ask the Etihad for 8m, which is less than the reported value of the sponsorship. But in fact, later on in the same email, the Etihad representative clearly refers to the full reported amount of £67.5m.
More importantly, during the UEFA case the auditors were fully aware of the emails (leaked 2018) and checked the transactions that are referenced in those leaked emails. This included auditors hired by UEFA for the case. Note that UEFA has also asked Der Spiegel for more evidence relevant to the case, but the leakers didn't have any; thus City was cleared of the charges by CAS.
"City has obviously been artificially inflating revenue, by getting sponsorships from their owners."
The PL and UEFA have defined exactly what counts as a 'related party' for the purposes of determining whether the sponsoring company is related to the owner. However, LessBrain also summarized that in fact related party sponsors are actually allowed under UEFA FFP rules and many clubs have this arrangement. E.g., Bayern's shareholders Allianz, Adidas etc openly sponsor them thus have the ability to profit from their own sponsorship.
That said, Borson summarizes that the Etihad etc are NOT under current rules considered related parties by auditors and by UEFA, and UEFA also assessed the value of the Etihad's sponsorship and found that it was fair value.
"The commercial revenue City reports is obviously fake. How can it be larger than other clubs with more history."
Firstly, City's revenue as shown by Deloitte Football Money League did not become the largest in European football until the 2021/22 season, a decade delayed from their trophy success.
Still many people demand, how could its revenue ever come close to big clubs with history and so many more fans? But there is no law that 1 fan = X dollars of revenue, as if the major source of income of clubs is shirt sales or tickets. The most valuable revenue source for clubs (Deloitte) is actually broadcast revenue and commercial sponsorship agreements. City has made it far in most competitions e.g. CL every year ensuring broadcast revenue is pretty consistent. And the club as of 21/22 have almost 40 different commercial sponsors.
Each sponsor has certain things they care about when they sponsor, such as the values of the ambassador, the appeal of the club in their target market, and most of all -- as summarized by LessBrain, commercial revenue also follows success in the competition. City as of late are the most successful club in terms of going far in competitions, in the richest league in England.
I don't know exactly how the sponsor agreements were negotiated, but the following might be points in City's favor:
they have consistently done well in PL and domestic cups, and advanced in the CL.
there are many young fans. The club is quite popular on 'young people platforms'.
They're very attentive to international fans. e.g. their foreign language platforms release regular subtitled content.
The club has a large portion of English players e.g. Grealish, the most commercially valuable English male footballer atm, and a successful academy.
"City couldn't attract good players unless they pay them under the table."
The points above can also be considered attractions for players. Players can come here and have a chance at every major trophy and of proving themselves for the national team.
Many times the City charges seem to get tied up with secret payments, which implies repeated accounting fraud and tax evasion. But CFG is a huge global business with clubs around the world. There is a saying that "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead". Although we don't know what evidence the PL has, thousands of people -- players, agents, accountants -- have participated in these transactions.
Furthermore, why would the club need to pay more illegally when they openly report some of the highest fees in football? It would be, frankly, stupid and the ownership has shown that they are competent.
"The club is just spending their way to success, it's not organic."
A certain level of spending is what it takes to be a top club and everyone knows it. This is why the spanish government gave their own clubs millions in tax breaks and why big clubs back in 2009 got in so much debt. No club has broken into the top and stayed there "organically", e.g. Leicester breached FFP on the way to their PL title.
I see a lot of big 4 fans say things like 'we never broke FFP, we don't need owner handouts'. Of course, because FFP which was only implemented in 2011. At the time of FFP they were big brands already, already generating more income, getting priority on talent, and also going forward allowed to spend more.
For a new entrant to top 4, a lot of infrastructure, squad investment, and transfer spend is needed. And this was the way that Chelsea, City and now Newcastle have done it in the PL.
"It's just an oil club."
I guess City fans could start standing on the moral high ground too if the club had 'clean' sponsors instead... like Emirates or Petro-Canada Lubricants
This non co-operation nonsense makes me laugh. I think they're expecting us to hand them evidence of our own guilt and when we don't they find us guilty of non co-operation. Why on earth would we want to co-operate with investigations that are so obviously designed to get us no matter what at the behest of our competitors.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if when the rags and Liverpool interviewed Masters for the Premier League job they made his appointment conditional on charging City.
Quote from: gavin on February 15, 2024, 21:29:09
This non co-operation nonsense makes me laugh. I think they're expecting us to hand them evidence of our own guilt and when we don't they find us guilty of non co-operation. Why on earth would we want to co-operate with investigations that are so obviously designed to get us no matter what at the behest of our competitors.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if when the rags and Liverpool interviewed Masters for the Premier League job they made his appointment conditional on charging City.
I think that the cozy cartel of Arsenal, Liverpool and Utd shot themselves in the foot when the 3 of them tried to bring in the Super League. They literally stuck up 2 fingers to their bedmates in UEFA, the PL and the FA. These 3 clubs seem to be behind everything. They tried to force UEFA to ban City from the CL before due process had taken place. it's no secret that the City owners did Liverpool a massive favour by not reporting the hacking scandal to the FA. I'd love to City legally challenge the NDA and expose who was involved and to what level. The fact that Liverpool insisted on the NDA is enough to indicate that they were in deep deep brown stuff.
The charges were rushed through without thought as the PL were about to be overseen by a true independent regulator and shit themselves as they were obviously incompetent as this farce shows. They wanted to know things (imo) that were not relevant to any so called breaches of FFP and intrude into our private financial dealings to see if they could possibly catch up and stall our progress somewhat.
As Khaldoon said. "people in glass homes shouldn't throw rocks."
Big rumours these charges are going to be dropped
Quote from: Stephen Paul on February 17, 2024, 12:02:12
Big rumours these charges are going to be dropped
I hope not. All we'll hear about then is that we paid them off or got off on a loophole as per the UEFA CAS verdict. If a lot of the evidence is based on the Rui Silva hacked documents then I can well imagine the PL withdrawing the charges as the authenticity of the majority of these have been proven to be abridged. It also came to light that his main reason for hacking was for extortion. Maybe the PL realise that the can of worms they've opened means that they'll have to use the same vigor and investigate all clubs. Someone told me recently that Liverpool and at least 2 other clubs (he said one of them might be West Ham) are currently being investigated for dodgy payments to players and tax avoidance.
The sooner it is all dropped the better. People who want to have a problem with City will continue to, whether it is dropped tomorrow or whether it goes to the very end of the process and then City are cleared. You have to remember that people like Jamie Carragher think that they know it all. They are so stupid that they don't realise that they are.
Quote from: gavin on February 17, 2024, 13:01:42
The sooner it is all dropped the better. People who want to have a problem with City will continue to, whether it is dropped tomorrow or whether it goes to the very end of the process and then City are cleared. You have to remember that people like Jamie Carragher think that they know it all. They are so stupid that they don't realise that they are.
That is very true. The irony is that there is a lot more evidence of collusion and certain clubs being protected than there ever was against City.
.....after my last post I found this! Surely this can't be true?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/02/10/row-brewing-liverpool-manchester-uniteds-involvement-premier/
It's common knowledge that the red mafia played a big part in the appointment. The bloke is a puppet.
Quote from: gavin on February 18, 2024, 13:08:05
It's common knowledge that the red mafia played a big part in the appointment. The bloke is a puppet.
I just thought it was rumour! How the f*ck can this be in the public domain and not be investigated? It really does make sense though
It looks like Chelsea are being investigated as well as part of the Cyprus Confidential leaks.
https://www.icij.org/investigations/cyprus-confidential/chelsea-fc-once-owned-by-roman-abramovich-could-face-punishment-over-secret-payments-experts-warn/
Russian money laundering in Cyprus has been going on for years (not just Abramovich) as is documented.
the can of worms is opening
Quote from: reddishblue on February 18, 2024, 20:28:16
Russian money laundering in Cyprus has been going on for years (not just Abramovich) as is documented.
Yea I know. My sister has a house near Gocek in Turkey and it became a haven for rich Russians. We rented a house near there for a month when I was home from Singapore and it was like the set of a James Bond film set. Shortly after the Cyprian government froze a lot of their accounts. It got so bad that they were literally selling off assets for pennies on the dollar. Cars, watches, villas, boats etc. Sis did well out of it!
Meanwhile some US banks that have in interest in some PL clubs have been fined/sanctioned for ACTUAL fraud. Coincidentally of course they are the drivers of FFP P&S etc.
Quote from: reddishblue on February 19, 2024, 23:11:15
Meanwhile some US banks that have in interest in some PL clubs have been fined/sanctioned for ACTUAL fraud. Coincidentally of course they are the drivers of FFP P&S etc.
I remember Klopp taking the moral high ground about something in a press conference decked out from head to toe in Standard Chartered sponsored clothing. £1.4bn was their last fine!
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/unofficial-partner-podcast/id1459630823 (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/unofficial-partner-podcast/id1459630823)
If you have a bit of time, this worth a listen.
I see there are strong rumours of Michael Edwards going back to Liverpool. I vaguely remembered that his name had been mentioned in as the main person involved in the Man City Scout7 hacking scandal. I checked it out online and indeed he was heavily involved, but what's really surprising is the response from the FA when they concluded their investigation:
"A spokesperson said: "The FA carefully considered the evidence received in this matter, including information provided by both clubs involved, and has decided not to progress the investigation.
"This is due to a number of factors including the age of the alleged concerns and the settlement agreed by the two clubs involved.
"As per standard protocol, should the FA receive further information or evidence, the decision not to progress the investigation may be reviewed."
The above seems innocuous enough until you realise how serious a crime Intellectual Property Theft is. City should never have agreed a settlement with Liverpool, but the NDA that is part of that agreement is not valid if there was a legal infringement, which in turn means that the FA should have sanctioned Liverpool. They literally tracked City's transfer activity for over 8 months! At the very least they should have received a transfer ban.
The wording from the FA is farcical in light of how there are no time barring in relation to the City hearing!
So Forest get a four point deduction subject to a likely appeal that should conclude a few days after the season finishes. It's a shambles. How can the last matches happen and the outcome of them not be clear until days later?
Quote from: gavin on March 18, 2024, 22:10:30
So Forest get a four point deduction subject to a likely appeal that should conclude a few days after the season finishes. It's a shambles. How can the last matches happen and the outcome of them not be clear until days later?
Its all a farce
Rumour has it that Mansour has splashed out on 30 million to hire the best lawyers to take the FA and PL to the cleaners
30 million would seem a bit much but no doubt that the lawyers will be costing a lot and even more if we are found guilty and need to appeal or take further legal action.
It just means that the PL will have to do their homework. They know that the City legal team will have trawled through all of the sponsorship deals for other clubs and to check for consistency in applying the rules, same applies to FFP. Squeaky bum time for a lot of other clubs
Leicester now charged. The PL and their rules are becoming more farcical every day.
The way things are going , every club will be investigated
becoming a cluster fuck
Super League getting closer?
Could be an interesting twist...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-charges-etihad-32425097 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-charges-etihad-32425097)
The headline is laughable so ignore it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-01/adq-said-to-explore-etihad-listing-in-first-for-gulf-hub-carrier?embedded-checkout=true (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-01/adq-said-to-explore-etihad-listing-in-first-for-gulf-hub-carrier?embedded-checkout=true)
NEWS:
Etihad Airways are preparing a stock market IPO (initial public offering) following a profitable performance in 2023.
This process would allow full disclosure of all financial accounts and transactions to potential investors.
This is very bad news for the Premier League, who have the Etihad sponsorship deal at City under scrutiny as part of their 115 charges.
If it came to light that Etihad executives were involved in manipulating the sponsorship deal with City, it could cause serious damage to the company's reputation in the eyes of potential investors, if there are any skeletons in the closet, presenting the company accounts for IPO will uncover them.
Which begs the question... Why would Etihad Airways consider a move like this knowing it will have a negative impact on both Manchester City and themselves?
The answer is; they wouldn't. Because they've done nothing wrong.
Etihad wouldn't be willing to grant unfettered access into their financial affairs and corporate practices if it would uncover a smoking gun to prove fraud had been committed.
The Premier Leagues accusation is that City executives have colluded with officials from Etihad and have lied not only to the club's independent auditors, but also to UEFA and The Premier League. By extension, that also calls into question what information was disclosed by City's owners to Silverlake before the American private equity firm bought a significant stake in the club in 2019. That's why the Premier League's allegations go way beyond accusing City of failing to meet Profit and Sustainability Rules.
Throw in the mix the stake purchased by a Chinese consortium and that makes five separate entities that City would have had to bare face lie to the entire time... How likely you think it is that our world class investment magnates would go to such deceptive lengths is entirely up to you.
I know where my money would be, and it wouldn't be backing them to be frauds.
CAS have already ruled that any suggestion of a conspiracy involving executives of both City and Etihad, as well as high-ranking Abu Dhabi officials and even members of the country's Royal Family was beyond the realms of possibility.
This is really really not going well for the Premier League, and all the millions of rival fans who are not privy to this information (by choice) are going to be a sight to see. Stock up on popcorn blues, it's going to be BIBLICAL.
The PL acted in haste because they didn't like the idea of an independent regulator, i.e. the red tops panicked. They can now repent at leisure.
Forest are now appealing their punishment. That will probably be cleared up after the end of the season. Forget an exciting relegation battle because we will likely only know the outcome in the weeks after the last matches of the season.
Everton deducted another 2 points today.
I wonder when the appeal for that will finish. It will probably be the last act of the season not a final whistle.
Thinking of getting one of these.
https://www.tshirtsunited.com/dirty-cheating-bstards-tshirt (https://www.tshirtsunited.com/dirty-cheating-bstards-tshirt)
Free the Manchester 50000 from this bollocks.
I've ordered the sky blue one with 115 on the back and will wear it with pride during the trophy parade of the league and cup ;)
(https://www.tshirtsunited.com/image/cache/catalog/designslarge/d/dirty-cheating-bstards-tshirt_skybluetshirt-570x570.jpg)
fucking love it
where can I order one
Quote from: Stephen Paul on April 27, 2024, 05:58:40fucking love it
where can I order one
The link is in my previous post
There are rumours going around that City have sent out a load of letters to various news organisations, journalists etc to shut the fuck up.
There's loads of rumours abounding lately. Mostly around City being cleared. Wait and see but the attitude around the club really is bullish.
This from our revered BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgrjv9ydv31o (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgrjv9ydv31o)
No author's name mentioned, comments turned off etc. The headlines are totally pathetic attempts to sully the club.
It is not the worst article that I have read. I'd like to see more questioning of the rules themselves and the motives behind them though. Our game is being Americanised. The aim of this is not to make it a more sustainable sport but to enable profits to go to American owners and allow them to dominate by preventing the opposition to be able to compete.
If anybody needs something to read over the summer...
https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/media/b0d08e04-9a95-425c-a906-57f899544430/FFP.pdf (https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/media/b0d08e04-9a95-425c-a906-57f899544430/FFP.pdf)
It all sounds and looks like a huge cluster fuck by the PL
Hopefully City will wipe the floor with them and the Red media wankers
I'd really, really love it if we could just go back to football being played on grass and not being subject to the evil machinations of American owners whose only interest is taking profits out of the sport and putting it into their own pockets. The game does not benefit from various clubs being docked points for financial reasons during the season. It has become a farce already. But the hole is being dug deeper if anything.
This whole thing was started and is being driven by the now defunked big 4
City are taking the PL to court next week. Something about their FFP rules being against UK competition law.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/29c358cd-9522-4e2d-b21d-4336b22561a2?shareToken=b63ee34d575c405abb241d603045ed3b (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/29c358cd-9522-4e2d-b21d-4336b22561a2?shareToken=b63ee34d575c405abb241d603045ed3b)
https://archive.ph/glPMX (https://archive.ph/glPMX)
Smash the red mafia.
Quote from: reddishblue on June 04, 2024, 17:13:29City are taking the PL to court next week. Something about their FFP rules being against UK competition law.
Sounds interesting
"They accuse rival clubs of "discrimination against Gulf ownership", citing the comments of one particular senior club executive."
My money is on it being a yank director. Odds Stevie?
City's legal move is calculated, hence the timing. In my view, this is a precursor of what is to come from City's owners.
Grab your popcorn and get a front row seat everyone!!
Quote from: reddishblue on June 04, 2024, 18:36:08"They accuse rival clubs of "discrimination against Gulf ownership", citing the comments of one particular senior club executive."
My money is on it being a yank director. Odds Stevie?
12 clubs against City
1 club backing City , wonder who , Newcastle ?
My money is on it being a yank director. Odds Stevie?
1/5 on ;D
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/crggez4w209o
I'm surprised by this. After all the difficulties the PL and UEFA have put us the over the years, to start legal action now seems odd to me. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. From what I've read I can't see how we can win it tbh. We may not like the rules but it seems like PL followed their own process correctly.
The legal team representing City must have something up their sleave
Let the show begin
Fuck them all
The claim is not that the Premier League did not follow their own process but that the rules are unlawful. The Premier League has to follow English Law. If the rules or their implementation are discriminatory or anti-competitive then it doesn't matter if they followed process. We need to see what actual evidence City have that that is the case.
Worth a listen as there's actually someone on it who has read the 165 page document about the proceedings due to start next week as opposed to some shithead like Simon Jordan and his ilk.
https://open.spotify.com/show/7c7ltYVwnicbVz0uYTXAW5?go=1&sp_cid=5fc7271a892566903fb59307b1ff6622&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=55edc01dd32f460d (https://open.spotify.com/show/7c7ltYVwnicbVz0uYTXAW5?go=1&sp_cid=5fc7271a892566903fb59307b1ff6622&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=55edc01dd32f460d)
I can see this ending badly for the PL who have introduced all these rules to project the so called big 4 which is continuously driven by the red media
The damage will non repairable between City and the PL which could pave the way for the Super League
I wish that football would sort itself out and cut out this nonsense. We never had any of this shite until City became successful. Clubs could just spend what they wanted. Clubs always outspent other clubs. It only became wrong when City did it. And we are not even doing it any longer.
The formation of the PL was designed to protect the so called top clubs, the like of Everton included. What happens next you might ask? Those with the biggest revenues, grounds and world wide support voted to deny visiting teams a decent share of the ticket sales.
This clearly protectionist policy is now being challenged and about time too.
As Gav said earlier, fuck the red cartel (or what's left of them) ;D
Quote from: reddishblue on June 06, 2024, 15:36:06Worth a listen as there's actually someone on it who has read the 165 page document about the proceedings due to start next week as opposed to some shithead like Simon Jordan and his ilk.
https://open.spotify.com/show/7c7ltYVwnicbVz0uYTXAW5?go=1&sp_cid=5fc7271a892566903fb59307b1ff6622&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=55edc01dd32f460d (https://open.spotify.com/show/7c7ltYVwnicbVz0uYTXAW5?go=1&sp_cid=5fc7271a892566903fb59307b1ff6622&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=55edc01dd32f460d)
Shame on Watford!!!
Quote from: Stephen Paul on June 05, 2024, 10:15:4812 clubs against City
1 club backing City , wonder who , Newcastle ?
My money on 2 clubs who may be supporting City quietly in the background are Newcastle & Villa. Big money owners who can't spend. Also, my understanding is that City originally abstained from the initial vote on this rule and warned the PL of further action at the time. This rule was brought in clearly to stop Newcastle.
This starting to become interesting and should help pass the time until the football starts ;)
https://archive.ph/CG0OQ (https://archive.ph/CG0OQ)
"Richard Masters, the Premier League chief executive, and his predecessor, Richard Scudamore, are among those who have been required to hand over messages, with officials told to disclose all communications referencing City dating back to 2009."
Cue a load of suddenly 'missing' Whatsapps from the rags, scousers and arse
Quote from: gavin on June 08, 2024, 22:32:09Cue a load of suddenly 'missing' Whatsapps from the rags, scousers and arse
Panick in the camps
So Villa owner says he will have to sell a star player to stay within the PL rules instead of challenging for the PL next season
Villa owner now Backing City against the PL
Quote from: Stephen Paul on June 13, 2024, 10:54:26So Villa owner says he will have to sell a star player to stay within the PL rules instead of challenging for the PL next season
Villa owner now Backing City against the PL
The ridiculous thing is Villa will gain extra revenue revenue this year due to participation in the champions league. However, because of the 3yr period for PSR they are not allowed to account for this in that particular period. This shows what a complete farce the rules actually are.
I see we've been fined 2 million quid for being 115 seconds late.
Apparently it upsets the telly that we're a bit late sometimes. The Premier League still ignores the fact that football fans have to put up with continually changed dates and times that are often incredibly inconvenient. Games last two hours from kick off anyway these days. They should give the money to the Football Supporters Groups.
getting ridiculous already and the season hasnt started yet
They'll be charging us because the grass is too long next. Oh wait they already have.
You're incorrect. It was the wrong shade of green.
Where does this stop haha. The desperation from Masters and now the press (lol) continues to amuse me greatly.
Is it because we are favourites to win the league again :D
https://archive.ph/20240813191254/https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/premier-league-clubs-man-city-compensation-case-115-alleged-breaches-5lqsv0qpb (https://archive.ph/20240813191254/https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/premier-league-clubs-man-city-compensation-case-115-alleged-breaches-5lqsv0qpb)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c049n6evlyyo (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c049n6evlyyo)
https://stefanborson.substack.com/p/conspiracy-theories-and-innuendo?utm_campaign=post (https://stefanborson.substack.com/p/conspiracy-theories-and-innuendo?utm_campaign=post)
The Premier League are on trial for their 115 lies at long last come Monday.
The rags have just announced a massive loss again, making it something like -£359m in the last 3 years yet NO allegations of any possible PSR breach by anyone unsurprisingly.
Also, why is debt not considered by FFP/PSR? A conundrum methinks...
Anyway I reckon the PL are absolutely shitting themselves as are some red cartel clubs. Just my opinion of course :D
I also find it strange that no announcement or change of rules has taken place after our associated party transaction (APT) challenge.
What this says to me is the PL have no idea what to do next apart from a way out of this shit show and are either desperate or in total chaos or possibly both
.
City have been investing in football, the regeneration of a huge part of Manchester and massive help to the community. Unlike some Yank owned clubs who only take money out.
Rant over.
Quote from: reddishblue on September 12, 2024, 22:09:59I also find it strange that no announcement or change of rules has taken place after our associated party transaction (APT) challenge.
What this says to me is the PL have no idea what to do next apart from a way out of this shit show and are either desperate or in total chaos or possibly both
.
City have been investing in football, the regeneration of a huge part of Manchester and massive help to the community. Unlike some Yank owned clubs who only take money out.
Rant over.
100% correct
All kicks off tomorrow and sadly I think the judgement will not be formed on concrete evidence and the audit trail of money and transactions, but what the judges think of the inconclusive evidence (emails, circumstances). For instance, i wait to see what concrete evidence the PL presents to the tribunal that Roberto Mancini was given additional consultancy work in the UAE as a (underhand) supplement to his City salary.
City were exonerated by CAS, a 2 1 judges decision however. So, one judge believed (without concrete evidence or audit trail City were guilty) and these adjudicators might easily be swayed by PL arguments not fully backed up by accounting evidence (applying the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt principle).
That said the sooner this shit is sorted out the better, hopefully with City owners and directors vindicated (as I trust and believe in them and hope they will for the sake of the club and it's loyal fans). They have done more for City, the local community and Manchester than all the other club owners. Other club fans hate us from ignorance, misinformation and in some cases jealousy.
Whatever the outcome, we accept it and just move on, and upwards.
Or maybe we appeal like we did the UEFA two year ban. I'm not worried about watching City in lower divisions again if necessary. In some ways it is attractive. No VAR and away matches streamed at 3pm. But we must pursue justice until the end. Leicester appealed and win.
The media will be full of bullshit for the next month or two
Bring on league two
Back to Maine road days 8)
The media is always full of bullshit and it just gets worse and worse over the years. I remember the days that the Saturday Pink was just full of football. Nowadays there are more stories on the internet about finance of football than football. I don't even think that there were financial rules back then and you certainly never heard of points deductions for breaking them. Strange how they appeared when City got good and the rags declined.
Talking about the rags decline
This week
City V Inter CL
Man Utd V Barnsley LC
Say no more
Just how it should be.
This is interesting. Apparently the new rules proposed by the PL might also be unlawful, what a fuck up they are.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8rlm680j0mo (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c8rlm680j0mo)
Khaldoon Mubarak has done his homework
They don't learn their lesson. Masters et al need replacing with people not in the pockets of the red mafia. But it's probably going to take a new League being set up.
It will be Tony embarrassing when the PL has to back down again.
If we are found not guilty of the charges then they will have to go. That along with the new rules farce would have to be the end of the current regime.
Aston Villa have written to the PL asking them to postpone Friday's vote on APT/PSR rules. Other clubs to follow?
https://x.com/TeleFootball/status/1858836004582428713 (https://x.com/TeleFootball/status/1858836004582428713)
https://archive.ph/N4JzI (https://archive.ph/N4JzI)
The reigning champions Manchester City are famously owned by the City Football Group, a consortium involving the Abu Dhabi United Group, Silver Lake and China Media Capital & CITIC Group. The takeover of the club was completed in 2008 and has entirely transformed City. City's meteoric rise under the ownership has led to eight Premier League titles and a Champions League crown while cementing the club as one of the best in the world.
The City Group name is taken from the Manchester outfit and includes other clubs such as Girona, New York City, Mumbai City and Palermo. The club's state ownership has come in for criticism, with their success being seen by some as 'sportswashing', and the ongoing investigation into City's 115 charges by the Premier League hangs over the club. But if early predictions that they will win the 'Trial of the Century', then that, again, will be down to the brains behind football's biggest operation.
Now 130 charges. What a farce.
Even though the hearing is now over, it could still go on for a while....
https://x.com/slbsn/status/1866424261348319710?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1866424261348319710%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
EXPLAINED: PL v City - what happens now. Judgments are rarely quick, many issues still to deal with...
In the real world (the High Court, for example), the result of a 12 week trial would take a year or more to appear. The judgment here will run to maybe 500 pages and will consider each allegation, each witness, each significant argument in detail. It is worth remembering that the APT hearing result took 3 months (2 week hearing and a relatively simple matter) to appear. The decisions on the follow-on APT questions also seem to be expected to take a further 3 months. The wheels tend to turn slowly.
It is hard to see how, on any basis, the PL v City result can come before the end of March (never mind the end of January). And even then, the result is only a partial piece. Here's why:
1⃣ The deliberations and writing up of the decision will now commence but if The Lawyer magazine is correct, this hearing was only to consider liability - did City breach or not. It did not consider sanction and those factors considered aggravating and mitigating.
2⃣ So the sanction submissions will come later and can only come after the liability judgment is released because the submissions relating to aggravating and mitigating factors will flow from the findings of fact in the liability judgment.
3⃣ But wait. It is potentially even more complicated. A party could decide to appeal the liability judgment before the sanction judgment is received (or even heard).
4⃣It is also likely that the parties will need at least a month after receiving the liability judgment to prepare and diarise a sanction hearing - top barristers are not available at the drop of a hat to switch back to the PL v City case. It could well take 2 months from drop of the liability decision to hear the sanction case, which itself is likely to take 2 weeks (or more). After that, there will be a further wait for the decision.
5⃣ A quick liability decision is likely to mean a City win - if the PL has proven the substantive and serious matters, the tribunal will need to ensure the judgment is exceptionally strong - the findings will be extremely damning and sensitive so it will need a huge amount of work to finalise that document. It will be exceptionally long and it will take longer to prepare and check.
6⃣ There are then many more questions:
- is any sanction imposed pending an appeal? A sanction leading to a relegation or worse is likely to cause irreparable harm if overturned on appeal so will this give rise to a suspension of the sanction pending appeal?
- how long will appeal take even to be heard. Given the necessary preparation work and the number of diaries to align (the barrister teams are big), it is likely to take months just to diarise an appeal hearing.
- while an appeal is not a retrial, a very serious finding against City will almost certainly lead to a broad appeal. Such an appeal hearing could easily last a month with a decision easily taking many more months.
So the timeline and process from here is far from clear - even the parties are unlikely to know with much certainty what happens next and when. As such, anyone claiming levels of certainty or near certainty are just making it up...
getting more farcical by the day
15 more charges added it seems. So it's now 130. WTF is going on?
Quote from: Vickki on December 11, 2024, 17:59:3015 more charges added it seems. So it's now 130. WTF is going on?
After the initial charges were screwed up by the PL they were redone. It always had been 130, just the media don't like admitting they were wrong so they stick to 115 charges for their headlines.
Quote from: KunDB on December 11, 2024, 18:50:40After the initial charges were screwed up by the PL they were redone. It always had been 130, just the media don't like admitting they were wrong so they stick to 115 charges for their headlines.
Is the correct answer.
City have launched a new arbitration case against the Premier League over the amended Associated Party Transaction (APT) rules, arguing they are "unlawful and void."
Stefan Borsan (https://x.com/slbsn/status/1887884292094664743?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1887884292094664743%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=)
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cvgpzmj83ljo)
I wish we could just get back to football and forget all this shite. But the red mafia will be crooked. Maybe they would be better off if they concentrated on football too.
I just hope City win this after their advance warning to the PL & other clubs.
Pep Guardiola: "I know in this club it's always just about money... I think in one month will be the verdict [on the 115 charges], the sentence, and after we'll see my opinion about what happened so far..."
Somebody please listen to this and then explain it in layman's terms for me :D
We fight until the end. We will challenge the red mafia and their lackeys until the end.
Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola says the club expects to learn the outcome of the hearing into its 115 charges of alleged Premier League financial rule breaches "in one month".
Looks like it's finally coming to a conclusion. I don't think anyone has a real clue which way it will go though.
Fingers crossed.
Boiling piss everywhere
Basically I think the APT challenge comes down to clubs like Arsenal who are allowed to take interest free/ very low interest loans from shareholders and it not count against Associated Party Transaction regulations, but clubs like city, Newcastle and NottsF can't take loans or investments from their owners as that's against APT (something like that).
City's argument is that it is anti-competition and that Shareholders are associated parties and therefore should fall within APT regs.
This is what I understand the major arguement to be, but I am not a lawyer or a finance expert.
The previous ruling said that shareholder loans had to be taken into account and the new rules say that they will be in future but it will not be backdated. City say that that is against the previous ruling.
1⃣ Interesting to see Antonoaldo Neves, CEO of Etihad interviewed in the Times today ahead of what seems to be an imminent IPO. The timing of the piece will not be accidental - it will be a planned pre-IPO promotional piece. It follows on from a recent Sky News interview. He was specifically asked about the reputational issues relating to the City charges.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GjXL-bDXcAA_AG7?format=jpg&name=large)
Stefan (https://x.com/slbsn/status/1888646493898231913?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1888646493898231913%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=)
It must be time for Masters to step down now. The APT rules have been declared null and void. Looks like City have won this hands down.
BREAKING! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c78xpp3vlkko)
Mike Keegan Daily Mail (https://x.com/MikeKeegan_DM/status/1890453597273334159?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1890453597273334159%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=)
The Premier League has suffered a significant setback after a tribunal deemed its sponsorship rules – which operated for almost three years - null and void.
In a bombshell verdict - that could now trigger a series of giant compensation claims and plunge the competition into crisis – an independent panel has sided with champions Manchester City and deemed that the league's Associated Party Transaction (APT) regulations, which ran from December 2021 to November 2024, were unlawful in their entirety.
We must sue them for every penny lost so far.
The APT/FFP rules were brought in to protect certain clubs who only want to take money out of the game and not invest, a typical American franchise type of idea. Protectionism is/was the name of the game.
Methinks this particular business model may have failed...
I think we should not sue the prem league, we should use it as leverage instead.
brilliant ;D
That cnut Tebas is at it again.
Tebas is a twot (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0rzzpnqywqo)
He says that the EU haven't replied and therefore it must be in the investigation phase. Or maybe the EU just couldn't be bothered to reply to the pointless prick with his bag of shite.
Tebas is a clown
There is a lot of talk on X currently that we have been cleared of all charges.
Prob won't be cleared of the hindering investigation
The media have already lined up the next shite to go on about with Tebas and Europe anyway ::)
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/sky-sports-fires-warning-to-pundits-in-email-ahead-of-man-city-ffp-verdict/ar-AA1B7efQ?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=7a38ccb6de54411a8fb2cd0fd28e3e3c&ei=11
Probably a good season to take a points deduction and still finish about the rags :D
My mate (yes read that as uninformed fan of another team) says there's chatter about a 20pt deduction
My understanding is that the punishment would not be dealt with intially anyway. It will just be a statement of innocence or guilt for each charge and that the punishment, if any, will be done separately. Therefore, people talking about specific points deductions at this stage would appear to be talking out of their arses.
Oh yeah, he's talking out of his anus.
But interesting the rumours are now substantially less than the 100 pt deductions
Quote from: Swiss on March 18, 2025, 10:59:22My mate (yes read that as uninformed fan of another team) says there's chatter about a 20pt deduction
20 points , not bad if guilty
115 all over the red media again this week
must be short of stories
Looks like the gloves are off in the APT saga.
From the Times (https://archive.ph/CAA6U)
Quote from: reddishblue on April 04, 2025, 12:33:29Looks like the gloves are off in the APT saga.
From the Times (https://archive.ph/CAA6U)
Good read that
If anyone fancies a bit of a read...
Stefan Borson (https://stefanborson.substack.com/p/the-premier-league-cant-risk-an-apt2?triedRedirect=true)
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/man-city-demand-sensitive-information-from-arsenal-as-premier-league-feud-turns-ugly/ar-AA1DRbUN?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=56925ee45fdc4b12bb0f81391c82206a&ei=18 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/man-city-demand-sensitive-information-from-arsenal-as-premier-league-feud-turns-ugly/ar-AA1DRbUN?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=56925ee45fdc4b12bb0f81391c82206a&ei=18)
Interesting