citymancs

citymancs => off topic => Topic started by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 03, 2018, 22:46:51

Title: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 03, 2018, 22:46:51
The whole thing seems to have been an absolute sham from the beginning.

I'm not all that clued up on politics and voted leave pretty much due to the promises made in favour of the NHS.

Those promises haven't been kept (shocker) plus the whole set up for the referendum was rushed and the voters weren't informed properly of the effects of each potential result.

There has been plenty of talk of a do over, which I am fully in favour of as I would definitely change my vote and after becoming more aware of the situation, I'm sure many others would change their vote too.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 03, 2018, 23:05:07
good lad
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 03, 2018, 23:09:48
Cheers dad
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 03, 2018, 23:19:11
if i was your dad id have beat the shit out of you for doing something that stupid in the first place
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 03, 2018, 23:27:31
cant see it being cancelled

best we will probably  get is a  vote on taking no deal or whatever useless shit the tories have left scribbled on a fag packet that the e.u hasnt laughed out the room
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 04, 2018, 07:32:29
Given the people making the promises regards NHS funding it amazes me the people believed them at all. They were clearly oversimplified bollocks from the very start. There is a myriad of benefits and losses from being in the EU, to take the money put into the EU and say you could spend that on the NHS was plainly ridiculous.

This is what you get when you put the future in the hands of millions of idiots.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 04, 2018, 11:30:29
would help if they had the right amount in the first place
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bluebrendan on September 07, 2018, 09:38:12
Given the people making the promises regards NHS funding it amazes me the people believed them at all. They were clearly oversimplified bollocks from the very start. There is a myriad of benefits and losses from being in the EU, to take the money put into the EU and say you could spend that on the NHS was plainly ridiculous.

This is what you get when you put the future in the hands of millions of idiots.
Perhaps not as they did vote the likes of Boris and Gove into power in the first place, gullibility beating common sense yet again! 

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Kilkenny Blue on September 07, 2018, 23:31:05
So, will there be another vote then?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 08, 2018, 13:14:21
fuck knows
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 08, 2018, 14:06:05
No, there won't be another vote. Anyone individual can change their mind, we have elections regularly, but if you have a referendum then it is cast in stone and cannot be reversed apparently. It doesn't matter if it is going to be a complete fuck up. We must all pay because millions of idiots have spoken.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 08, 2018, 15:06:26
its the will of some people


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 08, 2018, 19:21:49
Well you seem to pointing the finger at the common man who is an 'idiot'. Surely that's a bit a harsh because as 'the common man' that I am, and as I said in my original post, I know cock all about politics. Baring that in mind, where the hell are we supposed to stand in regards to these things? We all know that politicians are serial bullshitters so is it a case of vote for who you think is lying the least?

Plus the mention of the population having to live by the sword in regards to living with the repucusions of who they vote for and standing by whoever wins the election, didn't Labour win the last elevation and it was a case of tough shit cos Teresa decided to stand with the Irish lads so she could swing the votes in her favour?

Bare in mind that she was never voted in in the first place and just dived in once Cameron spat his dummy out.

So what power does the population have with their vote?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 08, 2018, 19:45:13
because of fptp our votes have no real power. you want to vote for the greens, lib dems, plaid etc? that ends up being a vote to help the  tories get in

we should never have been given the option to vote on this in the first place seeing as the average bloke on the street has no real clue what the eu really do. main reason i voted remain is the eu subsidise the fuck out of wales, if it was left to the english we would all be eating tom jones pubes in a mud hut in merthyr
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 08, 2018, 20:04:45
For the first time in Mancs history, goaty tits has an extremely valid point, we should have never been given the vote in the first place!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 08, 2018, 21:13:14
Yep, 'democracy' is a joke. There's really no such thing when the person or persons who gets most votes doesn't win as happens in both the US and UK.

We only had a vote on Europe in the first place so Cameron could keep his party in line for a bit.

Sorry, but believing Gove, Boris, Farage about NHS funding is idiotic. Never mind, we are all idiots a lot of the time. That is why we are generally allowed to change our minds...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 08, 2018, 22:03:21
So, the answer is?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 08, 2018, 22:15:41
Blimey, I'd have to be a lot more intelligent to actually have answers as well as see the problems. Though it would be a good start to ensure that the person or persons with the most votes wins the election.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Kilkenny Blue on September 09, 2018, 02:43:32
All of the people I've spoken to who voted to leave would change their vote if there was another referendum.  Most of them did as a protest vote.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 09, 2018, 09:20:39
There should be another referendum on the final agreement or no deal. As indicated previously, this insistence that the outcome of any referendum must be final is crazy and inconsistent. Nobody knew the detail of what was being voted for at the time. People should be allowed to change their minds as they often do on big decisions.

Democracy is a sham and isn't working but there is no real alternative except to improve it by making it by actually making the results reflect the votes cast. It is an embarrassing mess to have popular vote losers win the election. There is something badly wrong with the party and electoral systems when we end up with Trump, Johnson and the like as political leaders. It is very difficult to find a politician to take seriously at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 09, 2018, 13:46:22
vote for romario
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: The Blue Blooded Maniac on September 10, 2018, 15:24:07
Good debate when half pissed on a Saturday night!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on September 12, 2018, 01:53:10

we should never have been given the option to vote on this in the first place seeing as the average bloke on the street has no real clue what the eu really do.

Exactly that. Fucking Cameron ffs.

So, the answer is?

We're all feckin fecked
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on September 12, 2018, 01:56:22
There should be another referendum on the final agreement or no deal. As indicated previously, this insistence that the outcome of any referendum must be final is crazy and inconsistent. Nobody knew the detail of what was being voted for at the time. People should be allowed to change their minds as they often do on big decisions.

I'm all for a second referendum, but not much point in voting for a shit deal or no deal.

Wouldn't be surprised if the deadline was extended to December 2019 and binned off via a second 'people's vote'.

Brexit = lunacy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 12, 2018, 13:42:08
they had 40 years to come up with a plan and all weve had is some bollocks about fish and blue passports
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Rowley Birkin QC on September 14, 2018, 23:12:19
So, the answer is?

Major electoral reform and Proportional Representation might be a good start.

But you all voted that down in a referendum as well....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on September 15, 2018, 08:25:46
Even the Daily Hate mail is printing quite negative pictures of brexit now... There's a turnaround.

Jacob Rees-Mogg is adamant the UK will be better off financially in the future. However, he's not sure if that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 years down the line. Sounds like an excellent platform for stability.   ::)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on September 15, 2018, 13:33:27
Some kind of pre-vote testing should be brought in
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Neil Mcnab on September 29, 2018, 19:02:44
The EU started as a cartel for coal and steel. Its carried on much the same, its undemocratic, wastes loads of money. Massively overpaid Eurocrats. Saying all that, if it was just a free trade area, I could put up with it. But its a political project to become the united states of Europe. No thanks.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on September 29, 2018, 21:22:00
Britain has a veto. It has not been forced into many aspects of the EU that other countries have agreed to. Whether this political project that you describe exists or not, there is absolutely no need for Britain to agree to it and, as has been shown, it could vote to leave anyway. If Britain does leave the EU, I reckon it will be back in in the next 20 years, with the Euro as currency and without the special vetoes it has negotiated over the years. The economic cost of Brexit will force Britain to go back cap in hand sooner or later. All the nationalistic chest beating in the world does not make a country an economic powerhouse.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Rowley Birkin QC on September 29, 2018, 23:15:27
This "EU is undemocratic" nonsense makes me laugh. The EU has a reasonably sound democratic structure that all its member states and their populations can have a direct say in (should the lazy Brits bother to turn up and vote that is... but that's hardly the EU's fault.) There are checks and balances - nothing can be forced on Britain that it's government doesn't agree with. Contrary to the much repeated Brexit myth, the much maligned Eurocrats do not go around just making up laws and then forcing them on EU member populations. They can formulate policy (and enforce existing regulations) but all new EU laws have to be passed by the EU Parliament and ratified by the member state commissioners.

It's not perfect of course - all government systems have flaws and 'undemocratic' glitches, but compare it to Britain which still bumbles along using a voting system that hasn't evolved since the 1920's and produces governments with massive unassailable majorities in the House of Commons on as little as 40% of the popular vote. The European Parliament, and most its continental member states with their proportionally elected governments have better democratic representation than Britain ever has!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: reddishblue on September 29, 2018, 23:37:54
There should be another referendum on the final agreement or no deal. As indicated previously, this insistence that the outcome of any referendum must be final is crazy and inconsistent. Nobody knew the detail of what was being voted for at the time. People should be allowed to change their minds as they often do on big decisions.

Democracy is a sham and isn't working but there is no real alternative except to improve it by making it by actually making the results reflect the votes cast. It is an embarrassing mess to have popular vote losers win the election. There is something badly wrong with the party and electoral systems when we end up with Trump, Johnson and the like as political leaders. It is very difficult to find a politician to take seriously at the moment.

City are top the league you misery.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Neil Mcnab on October 03, 2018, 19:45:57
The commission brings in legislation. By the fact the commissioners are there, they are bound to be Euro evangilists. If the direction of the EU was moveable, responded to the wishes of the population in Europe, it would be more democratic. It isnt. The parliament is little more than a talking shop.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Rowley Birkin QC on October 04, 2018, 14:03:47
Yes - the Commission can form legislation, but it can't become law without being passed by the European Parliament. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: gavin on October 05, 2018, 20:57:00
Neil, what makes you think UK 'democracy' is any better.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Neil Mcnab on October 06, 2018, 16:33:20
Bringing forward for legislation in the UK is mainly via the government, private members bills or case law in the courts. The first two are instigated by directly elected representatives, the MPs. The legislation brought in by the government is linked to their manifestos which they parade to people at elections. If people dont like it, they vote them out.
In the EU commissioners are faceless Eurocrats, accountable to few and wont be pushed out if the electorate dont like what they are doing. Without looking one up, name a commissioner. I cant.
So in that way I would say it is more democratic in the UK.

I like Europe. I like the idea of a common market, free trade. I dont want a Union with them. I am not anti immigration, I would like merit based immigration, similar to Australias. That may well mean more immigration than we have now, there should not be quotas. Our country benefits from importing the best the whole world has to offer. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on October 06, 2018, 18:47:20
but why would the best want to come to this basket case country?

one look at the fucking tories will fuck that
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on October 08, 2018, 08:44:51
England is now shit.  End of statement.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on October 08, 2018, 08:46:19
Michael Gove’s hot tip: hunt for gold in others’ rubbish (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/michael-goves-hot-tip-hunt-for-gold-in-others-rubbish-vk60ck53p)

UK / England / Tories are succeeding in making Greece look prosperous and organised  :D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on October 08, 2018, 11:36:40
we taking bets on who the brex cases blame when it all goes to shit?

probably still be foreigners
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Lekos on October 09, 2018, 06:17:53
I might go for an acca of Asians, anyone with an international baccalaureate diploma (foreign muck) and remainers.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Swiss on October 14, 2018, 20:16:12
Some kind of pre-vote testing should be brought in

You mean an IQ test?

What's the criteria? +120 and not racist?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: goat on October 15, 2018, 11:36:06
do you understand the question and not racist will do