Author Topic: VAR  (Read 231 times)

Rowley Birkin QC

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VAR
« on: April 18, 2019, 11:11:55 »
I will start off by saying I am not being particularly bitter about the result of last night's game. In the end, we lost because we didn't select an aggressive enough starting 11 at Spurs and failed to get an away goal. But I do want to make the following observations about VAR and the shambles it has already become.

If we have to have VAR for marginal decisions - then enforce it consistently and provide the officials with all the evidence to do the job.  So Aguero was marginally offside for Sterling's 'winner'? Okay, I can accept that - he probably was - marginally.

At the other end we have a Spurs player marginally handling the ball to force it into the goal. Yes, it is accidentally contact, yes it's marginal - but it's just as against the rules as Aguero's offside - and should have been ruled out.

But no - Ref wasn't shown all the angles - only the inconclusive one. So who is it who decides what the ref sees on the pitch side monitor? That's an immensely powerful (and seemingly unaccountable) position some faceless wonder holds...

I am not suggesting this is a UEFA / anti City conspiracy, but it does smack of the usual UEFA incompetence. No one seems to have organised this properly or thought through the procedures. If VAR is going to be this arbitrary they should bin it and go back to Mk 1 eyeball.

Utter shite.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 11:49:43 »
I agree with your opinions. We lost because we screwed up the first leg by being to conservative. Peps fault and Aguero for wasting the penalty. But you know what shit happens you just have to live with it. As City fans we should be well experienced to manage to do that.

As for VAR, I an in favour of it but I do not think it is being properly applied. Spurs thrid goal was a handball, accidental or deliberate, is not relaevant it should have been disallowed. I agree with Rowley on the video replay angles but I also noted that the referee had two angles displayed on his monitor to view but instead he concentrated solely on just one, when the other angle showed the arm contact better.

I have a slight problem with the Segio ruling, as I did with the PSG ball out of play ruling, just how far back do you take the review? City often have goals that were built up around double digit passes so at what point do you say we review back to or that has happened in the run of play and is no longer reviewable. Perhaps not clear cut for Sergio's goal but arguably the decision on that had been made (albeit wrongly) and what should only have been under review was the final play within the Spurs box. I say this to preserve the flow and excitement of the game. That was a very good goal by Sterling and simply did not deserve to be ruled out for such a margnal offside decision, that may have been affected by the point choosen to stop the video for the review. The pass has more than one precise moment of contact, when leg is swung, when boot contacts bal, when ball leaves foot and in video terms that gives scope to change an onside to an offside. I thought VAR was for clear cut decisions and I do not think that was as clear cut or 'matter of fact' as the commentators sought ot portray. 

One thing which shows the calamity of the system and its fundamental weakness was the studio referee last night, who repeatedly on BT stated, 'the ball hit his knee. There is no accounting for how stupid referees ar faced with the obvious.

Ultimately, both decisions with or without VAR came down to a referees decision and were far from being clear cut. So the question has to be asked what is the point of VAR if it cannot resolve a matter beyond dispute.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 12:03:18 »
Can the referee tell me that was not off his arm, it clearly was. More so from the other angle you can see Llorente glance down just before the contact.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 12:09:32 »
Referee review angles (doesn't include the above angle). Also showing the referee concentrating on just one angle.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 12:15:31 by KunDB »

gavin

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Re: VAR
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 12:48:13 »
I'm bitter about it. The whole thing is a joke. I'm considering whether to go to games in the future now. They're turning it into a TV sport. You're completely kept in the dark at the match. Better off watching on telly as at least you know whats going on. With it coming in in the prem next season I think thats it for me going to the game.

It produced an unfair result last night given that the ref would have allowed both goals last night and VAR should have disallowed both but ended up only disallowed ours. There's bound to be fuck ups but really its not fair to paying spectators the way it is.

I feel double cheated. Cheated by the handball goal. Cheated by not knowing what the fuck is going on at the game.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 13:40:04 »
Story Link

Peter Walton's claim on BT that it hit his knee is just so lamentable and incompetent. In this story Mark Halsey gets it right by stating:

"the goal should have been disallowed for handball, and was puzzled as to why the relevant angle was not shown to the referee."

Extract:
"Former Premier League ref Mark Halsey said the goal should have been disallowed for handball, and was puzzled as to why the relevant angle was not shown to the referee.

BT Sport pundit and former Manchester United star Rio Ferdinand agreed that it should have been handball.

Some City players were furious at the failure to spot the handball, with Fernandinho slamming open a door in the mixed zone and proclaiming “F*** VAR” when reporters asked him for a word.

Under a clarification of the handball rule which will come into force next season, the goal would almost certainly have been ruled out - if the handball was spotted by the referee."

lee

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Re: VAR
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2019, 22:08:18 »
Take the human element of of VAR.Pointless having 3 unvetted tools sat watching it in a room AND still getting it wrong.
Let a computer program sort it out.Cant be that hard to code surely!!!

Neil Mcnab

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Re: VAR
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 06:26:16 »
I will start off by saying I am not being particularly bitter,,,

Utter shite.
Are you sure you arent bitter? Its a memory now.

Move onto the league.

Hesperus

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Re: VAR
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 09:24:35 »
Apparently the Spurs player has now admitted it came off his hand. If this is correct he should come out publicly and say it because UEFA need to know that so they can learn from that mistake in the future. As Rowley says, we shouldn’t be having arbitrary decisions on VAR.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 11:44:30 »
Apparently the Spurs player has now admitted it came off his hand. If this is correct he should come out publicly and say it because UEFA need to know that so they can learn from that mistake in the future. As Rowley says, we shouldn’t be having arbitrary decisions on VAR.

That would not surprise me as it appeared as if he was hiding what he had done after the goal with his behaviour, in part getting as far away from the scene as possible. Also, it struck me that he glanced down just before contact pulling his arm in but elbow out slightly in an attempt to make contact. Of course, thus is all subjective and what happened has happened and that is football, so we all move on.

But it does expose the weaknesses of the VAR system and calls into question UEFA bringing forward its introduction by a year hurriedly. If an ex-referee (Peter Walton) in a studio who was able to watch multiple replays was stating repeatedly that it unequivocally hit his knee it just shows how the technology no matter how good can be vulnerable to the human element. No one has yet answered the question why was all angles not shown to the referee and why did BT show the revealing angle once on TV then not again, despite showing the other less informative angle over and over again?

Hesperus

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Re: VAR
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 14:05:28 »
If an ex-referee (Peter Walton) in a studio who was able to watch multiple replays was stating repeatedly that it unequivocally hit his knee

I wouldn’t read too much into his comment, he always was a useless, incompetent, scouse tosser of a referee.


The Blue Blooded Maniac

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Re: VAR
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 17:15:51 »
In regards to offside positions, wasn't a rule introduced a few years ago that gives benefit of the doubt to the attacking player?

gavin

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Re: VAR
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 22:09:35 »
   https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/04/18/referee-got-fernando-llorente-decision-right-next-season-would/        ::)

That old git wasn't a good ref in his day and he's wrong here too. You can't score off a handball and it hit his arm.

Rowley Birkin QC

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Re: VAR
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 23:29:19 »
Are you sure you arent bitter? Its a memory now.


Only about brexit Neil  ;)

No, it's done - but I am concerned about the effect VAR had on this game, and all football supporters should be very concerned about how it is implemented and the rules (are there any?) governing its procedures. 

Neil Mcnab

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Re: VAR
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 19:42:12 »
Only about brexit Neil  ;)

No, it's done - but I am concerned about the effect VAR had on this game, and all football supporters should be very concerned about how it is implemented and the rules (are there any?) governing its procedures.
I would prefer an approach where if it isnt an obvious error, the original decision stands. If you have to look at it again and again means it cannot be obvious Enough on Brexit though...

Hesperus

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Re: VAR
« Reply #16 on: Today at 11:42:31 »
I would prefer an approach where if it isnt an obvious error, the original decision stands. If you have to look at it again and again means it cannot be obvious Enough on Brexit though...

That’s how it’s supposed to be used, only for clear and obvious errors, however it’s now being used for all and any decisions no matter how trivial.

KunDB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:22:33 »
Having been a strong supporter of introducing VAR i am now reconsidering. As I said before the big problem was UEFA rushed it in a year early and did not undertake proper testing accordingly. Same is going to happen in the PL next year.

Having seen it operate I now believe the referee and officials should make all decisions but consideration should be given to managers having two intervention rights per game whereby they can ask for a VAR review by the on-field referee (showing all angles).

Hopefully, that would mean a manager would have to be very selective and cautious (perhaps judgement guided by the players) about calling for a review.

There would have to be set a time limit beyond the incident to seek a review, no more than a minute at maximum, with the review only being enacted after the next stoppage in play (to stop managers using it as a ploy to disrupt dangerous counter attacks, players can boot the ball out of play or foul someone if they really are sure and want play stopped immediately). Players would have to play to the whistle as if a goal is scored during this period it would still count.

That said no system is perfect and managers and clubs will always seek to exploit them for advantage, and referees will probably continue to get some calls wrong.

 
« Last Edit: Today at 12:26:40 by KunDB »