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away v The Hammers

Started by KunDB, August 10, 2019, 11:56:20

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KunDB

Ederson, Walker, Stones, Laporte, Zinchenko, Rodrigo, Silva (C), De Bruyne, Mahrez, Sterling, Jesus

Subs | Bravo, Gundogan, Aguero, Bernardo, Cancelo, Otamendi, Foden

C'mon City

gavin

No Bernard is a bit of a surprise. Should be good enough though.

gavin

Mixed half but great finish from Jesus.

Paddy

To slow, think some players still think they are still on holiday. Good recovery by Walker after some early blunders. Think their will be some changes second half; Mahrez off and Silva on. Sterling having problems staying onside. I am still relaxed...

Rowley Birkin QC

VAR is a crock of shit. Football is fucked if this nonsense continues.

gavin

There was a ref on Sky this week saying it will be for clear and obvious errors. What a crock of shite. It is a mockery.

Gareth

Yep, if this was the last day of the season and we had to better Pool's result to beat them to the title...

Gareth

Quote from: Gareth on August 10, 2019, 14:14:44
Yep, if this was the last day of the season and we had to better Pool's result to beat them to the title...

haha... there's always Sergio to pop up with a title-winner...

Rowley Birkin QC

We're now deciding offsides by the thickness of a shirt sleeve, using technology that I suspect is not infallible. It's ridiculous.

Rowley Birkin QC

Great finish by Sterling!

gavin

Great performance second half.

Paddy

I hate var even though it did go in our favour in the end. Spoiling the game

Hesperus

Great performance 2nd half, good chance to dust off some of the cobwebs.

VAR. what a joke. Clear and obvious my arse.

How can the 3rd be ruled out? No way the technology can call that correct. What’s the agreed level of accuracy? Like in cricket when it’s too close to call it goes to the umpires decision. No way that call for the 3rd goal was correct.

Rowley Birkin QC

In the end we looked very good - although one or two of our boys seemed to think they had more time to dwell on the ball than is normally available at this level! But for the most part we were inventive, quick, and precise in the second half. Great to make a statement straight away with a better goal difference than Liverpool. 

KunDB

5 0  Not bad for a mostly rusty early season display. Can only get better.

VAR should only be used for clear and obvious or each team allowed two requests for VAR to be used. Right you keep two appeals, wrong you lose one.

Great Win.

Rowley Birkin QC

Just seen a still of the VAR review picture for Jesus' disallowed goal and the difference between the coloured indicator lines (measured from the players shoulders) is measured in pixles! More to the point the coloured lines don't even look parallel with the white line on the pitch! It's rubbish!

Rowley Birkin QC


bluebrendan

Quote from: gavin on August 10, 2019, 14:07:01
There was a ref on Sky this week saying it will be for clear and obvious errors. What a crock of shite. It is a mockery.
Clear and obvious errors for pens and red cards but not for offsides - that's a line decision like the goal-line tech, either offside or not, even by a millimetre.

I'm pleased they're using the tech to punish encroachment at pens.

KunDB

#18
Quote from: Rowley Birkin QC on August 10, 2019, 14:57:59
Just seen a still of the VAR review picture for Jesus' disallowed goal and the difference between the coloured indicator lines (measured from the players shoulders) is measured in pixles! More to the point the coloured lines don't even look parallel with the white line on the pitch! It's rubbish!

The reality is the displayed lines in that photo are not the actual lines being used to make the decision, they are just a graphical display for fans. The actual decision is computer generated.

Anyway it is stupid to have such hairline decisions made by VAR spoiling what was a wonderful goal.

As for the penalty VAR decision it was clear on both occassions Fabianski was off his line (both feet) before Aguero made contact to shoot, so Mike Dean should have disallowed the first save for that reason alone (goaline fouls are not subject to a VAR decision, referees decision solely)

KunDB

PL Explanation of decisions

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsmanchester/premier-league-explains-var-decisions-in-man-city-win-at-west-ham/ar-AAFCAOd?ocid=spartanntp

The Premier League has explained the VAR decisions which had Manchester City’s 5-0 win at West Ham teetering on the edge of confusion.
The governing body, which has introduced the use of video refs this season, has moved to head off criticism of the new system after an amazing SIX decisions were reviewed by the video refs, based in Stockley Park.

The biggest call saw the first Premier League goal to be ruled out by VAR, as Gabriel Jesus was denied a goal when Raheem Sterling was adjudged to have been marginally offside before delivering his cross.

It seemed Sterling’s arm was the only part of his body offside which would have made the goal legitimate, but the league issued a statement which said “David Coote, the VAR in Stockley Park, deemed Sterling to be offside when he received the ball.

“Although the margin of offside was very fine, the technology proved that a part of Sterling’s body, that is not his arms, was just offside.

“So Dean overturned the goal and awarded a free-kick to West Ham where the infringement took place.

“Decisions such as offside are not subjective and are not part of the ‘clear and obvious’ error element of VAR that was introduced in the Premier League this season.”

They also pointed out that although Sterling was clearly upset at the decision, he later said: “It’s difficult during the game, but at the end of the day if the decision is right that's all that matters.”

Sterling was given the benefit of VAR later in the game as the officials reviewed his second goal, again a very close call.
This time it worked in his favour and the League said: “It was touch and go as to whether he was onside before scoring, but this time he was just the right side of the defender and the goal was allowed to stand after the VAR's check.”

Next came Sergio Aguero’s penalty which initially, it seemed, was ordered to be re-taken because goalkeeper Lukasz Fabianski had moved off his line before saving the spot kick.

But VAR is not used to determine whether keepers are on their line or not â€" and the league said it was a different reason entirely
“Coote was again called into action after Sergio Aguero’s penalty kick was saved,” they said.

“He spotted that West Ham’s Declan Rice, who was the first to reach the rebound from Lukasz Fabianski’s save, had clearly encroached the penalty area before Aguero had kicked the ball.

“Under the Premier League's VAR protocol, the VAR can intervene for encroachment by players that has a direct impact on the outcome of the kick.
“Because Rice's encroachment fulfilled this criteria, the VAR recommended to Dean to have the penalty retaken and the City striker did not pass up the second chance, making it 4-0.”

gavin

If you need to get a ruler, a protractor and a set square out to prove that its offside then the benefit should just be given to the attacker to keep the game running. They need to be able to look at it and just be able to say its offside. Those lines look dodgy. This isn't what it was brought in for. It is re-refereeing by fractions and wrong.

The ball over the line is a line call - there is a line there and the ball has to go all the way over. Offside is about trying to stop attackers gain advantage. VAR for offsides doesn't need to be to the millimeter. It needs to stop clear fuck ups. If they're going to do it to those fine margins then eventually they will get it wrong by a fine margin.

Again, we have a goal disallowed when the players are waiting to kick off. Its ruining the game as a spectator sport at the ground for me.

Rowley Birkin QC

Well said Gavin. It's bad enough watching on TV, but supporters in the stands must be bewildered at times. (Presumably they only get one brief look the 'decision shot' on the big screens?). Sooner or later I predict there will be a massive injustice perpetrated with this. 

Rowley Birkin QC

Quote from: KunDB on August 10, 2019, 16:28:19
The reality is the displayed lines in that photo are not the actual lines being used to make the decision, they are just a graphical display for fans. The actual decision is computer generated.

So the final picture we are shown is essentially a computer generated interpretation of reality, based on algorithms we are expected to trust, rather than proper optics. Or to put it another way - the image is faked!

KunDB

#23
Apparently so, with the algorithm the actual lines use are so super fine they cannot be seen properly by us.

The clear and obvious rule does not apply to offside as offside is 'black or white' either offside or not offside no grey area. Well that is what they say, I disagree, because offside is not at all clear e.g. an arm cannot be offside but a shoulder or body can.

How can we trust the technology and human beings interpreting that not to screw up, they simply, inevitably will sooner or later but there will be no means for us to know they have and therefore no challenge against that. Ridiculous.

Common sense says that a margin of error (not clear and obvious) should be built in which would mean any marginal decisions such as yesterday being given in favour of the attacking player.

bry the guy

with the rags and Liverpoo the only two clubs without big screens in the stadiums can it be fiddled with?

Gareth

Quote from: bry the guy on August 12, 2019, 00:13:42
with the rags and Liverpoo the only two clubs without big screens in the stadiums can it be fiddled with?


Yes, I wondered about that too. Will the images from VAR decisions at OT and Anfield be made widely available (to MoTD for example)? Or have the Rags and Dippers been granted secrecy?

KunDB

Of course it can and will be subject to human intervention.

I read
“Replays showed how it all depended as to what point the VAR measurements were taken. The recording system works at 25 frames per second and at the moment the pass was played to Sterling amounted to something like 5 frames of action. In 4 of those frames Sterling was onside and only offside in the 5th. Clearly the VAR referee had used that one frame to decide.”

https://mancitysquare.com/2019/08/12/manchester-city-var-ruining-football-together/